possible workaround for BL?

snnr

Member
Is that possible/useful to add in another flag tag for BL? A bool flag. A customizible condition will trigger the flag on and off. Say, casting Mandate trigger the flag on, and all your other primals that are tagged with "require flag" will start to be triggered. Another condition, say, savagery going down below 3 or 4 will turn the flag off.

So basically, it looks like this new feature requires a new variable and customizable on and off conditions. Everthing else remains the same.

Comments?
 

Nuprecon

Active Member
Is that possible/useful to add in another flag tag for BL? A bool flag. A customizible condition will trigger the flag on and off. Say, casting Mandate trigger the flag on, and all your other primals that are tagged with "require flag" will start to be triggered. Another condition, say, savagery going down below 3 or 4 will turn the flag off.

So basically, it looks like this new feature requires a new variable and customizable on and off conditions. Everthing else remains the same.

Comments?
I'm not quite sure what you are trying to do, but why not put all your primals at the top of your casting list then set them to only fire when savagery hits 5 or 6?
 

Kannkor

Ogre
Is that possible/useful to add in another flag tag for BL? A bool flag. A customizible condition will trigger the flag on and off. Say, casting Mandate trigger the flag on, and all your other primals that are tagged with "require flag" will start to be triggered. Another condition, say, savagery going down below 3 or 4 will turn the flag off.

So basically, it looks like this new feature requires a new variable and customizable on and off conditions. Everthing else remains the same.

Comments?
You'll need to be more clear...

What are you trying to accomplish? How is the current setup not working for what you're trying to accomplish?

(Since I don't understand, those are the generic questions I ask, because if something is missing, I can add it in).
 

snnr

Member
1. I don't want Evade or the long cast blue ae cast during my primal chain

2. from the 3rd or 4th primal to cast, you will never keep the savagery level up to 6 without temp buffs, thus you lose dps (not feral rampage VI, messed up recast of primals)

need to loose savage requirement for the last two primals.

You'll need to be more clear...

What are you trying to accomplish? How is the current setup not working for what you're trying to accomplish?

(Since I don't understand, those are the generic questions I ask, because if something is missing, I can add it in).
 

Kannkor

Ogre
1. I don't want Evade or the long cast blue ae cast during my primal chain

2. from the 3rd or 4th primal to cast, you will never keep the savagery level up to 6 without temp buffs, thus you lose dps (not feral rampage VI, messed up recast of primals)

need to loose savage requirement for the last two primals.
Yea.. definitely still no idea what you're after.

Make a chain for savagery freeze, that takes care of that chain.

For times when not using savagery freeze, let the bot build up savergy and cast primals at sav 6.

I'm still really confused.
 

snnr

Member
savagery freeze's base recast time is 4 min while primals' are 1 min.

With freeze - no problem. But they other 3 primals chains are like only 60% efficient as they are supposed to be. Let alone when Freeze is up again, your primals' recast are already messed up.

Perhaps I should just convert to assassin until Kannkor starts playing a BL himself:cool:

Correct me if I am wrong but, with the setting you just mentioned, I don't see BL is any op.



Yea.. definitely still no idea what you're after.

Make a chain for savagery freeze, that takes care of that chain.

For times when not using savagery freeze, let the bot build up savergy and cast primals at sav 6.

I'm still really confused.
 

snnr

Member
Btw, how do you play BL if you were playing it manually, if you don't mind me ask?

Yea.. definitely still no idea what you're after.

Make a chain for savagery freeze, that takes care of that chain.

For times when not using savagery freeze, let the bot build up savergy and cast primals at sav 6.

I'm still really confused.
 

Kannkor

Ogre
Btw, how do you play BL if you were playing it manually, if you don't mind me ask?
Manually? hahahaha

What other "chains" are there, then with savagery freeze?

I have a BL in my main group, I understand the basics of the BL, you build savagery, then use abilities that slowly drain it.

You're just asking me for something that I don't see how it would help based on the current situation.

The bot handles gaining savagery well, IMO. I'm not sure how a human would do it any different.
 

Kevinshp

Well-Known Member
Btw, how do you play BL if you were playing it manually, if you don't mind me ask?
Guildies know I box and come with me to do alt runs and our guild BL had a hard time staying ahead in the parse with Ali's setup. In fact he just became an ogre user. So not sure why your having issues with your BL.
 

snnr

Member
tbh, by using chaintab my own profile ourparse ali's profile in every situation (by like from 3~5% group dps. It is not something linear cuz buy chaining the primals I could have better grasp on timing temp buffs like combat mastery). Largest hits from ravaging and shadow leap are like 1.5m (after GU63). I don't have any new raid gear, and I was in x4 em/drunder em/eow em gears before GU. Maybe Ali's works better for drunder hm geared toons, idk.

Just think about it, when you are out of freeze, the feral rampage IV or above will drain the savagery so fast that you will not ever be able to gain any savagery when the drain has started. You will have to throw in your primals regardless the savagery level, thus you can hit as nearly hard as when you do have freeze. In fact, feral rampage buff's impact is way larger than savagery level.

Besides, I am not saying a real player can beat a bot... If i play my bl manually, I must suck. Your example doesn't prove anything tbh (could that be he sucks? well...) I just think if more BL specific features were added BL will do much better. But I am too tired of explaining this LoL


Guildies know I box and come with me to do alt runs and our guild BL had a hard time staying ahead in the parse with Ali's setup. In fact he just became an ogre user. So not sure why your having issues with your BL.
 

Ali

Active Member
tbh, by using chaintab my own profile ourparse ali's profile in every situation (by like from 3~5% group dps. It is not something linear cuz buy chaining the primals I could have better grasp on timing temp buffs like combat mastery). Largest hits from ravaging and shadow leap are like 1.5m (after GU63). I don't have any new raid gear, and I was in x4 em/drunder em/eow em gears before GU. Maybe Ali's works better for drunder hm geared toons, idk.

Just think about it, when you are out of freeze, the feral rampage IV or above will drain the savagery so fast that you will not ever be able to gain any savagery when the drain has started. You will have to throw in your primals regardless the savagery level, thus you can hit as nearly hard as when you do have freeze. In fact, feral rampage buff's impact is way larger than savagery level.

Besides, I am not saying a real player can beat a bot... If i play my bl manually, I must suck. Your example doesn't prove anything tbh (could that be he sucks? well...) I just think if more BL specific features were added BL will do much better. But I am too tired of explaining this LoL

I think I've mentioned before, but my profile is more set towards the upper end of the gear spectrum. So the better your gear/group setup, the more of benefit you'll see from it.

What you're asking for is already doable, use the chain tabs. Toss only primals in a chain tab, and it'll go down the chain without stopping due to savagery. If you're just doing short fights that will work fine, but if you're doing anything extended - keeping primals spaced and feral rampage almost constantly on will net you more dps.
 

snnr

Member
yes, it is doable. but the ca/advanages that are in chaintab will no longer be triggered in ca tab. My workaround is to fill in CAs from AA, which have exact recast time as primal, plus the encounter advantage. But I wish to have the smart encounter ae ability to perform better. And I couldn't find a way to refresh the CB buff advantage before the chain starts.

speaking of high-end gear, a primal takes 50, each advantage give 23 with new AA, each ca gives 21 (evade and snare that don't deal damage don't give savagagery) you will have to fill in exactly 3 ca/advantages in the 2 sec cap to keep the savagery at 6. And you can't not control not to use evade/snare. I am currently have both casting speed and recovery nearly capped, 35 reuse unbuffed, and RoA. Like I said it is hard to compare my performance but more often than not my BL miss the IV or V of feral rampage buff.

The feature that I am asking for support your approach as well. I just hope to be able to have a different casting order when casting primals.
 

Kannkor

Ogre
yes, it is doable. but the ca/advanages that are in chaintab will no longer be triggered in ca tab. My workaround is to fill in CAs from AA, which have exact recast time as primal, plus the encounter advantage. But I wish to have the smart encounter ae ability to perform better. And I couldn't find a way to refresh the CB buff advantage before the chain starts.

speaking of high-end gear, a primal takes 50, each advantage give 23 with new AA, each ca gives 21 (evade and snare that don't deal damage don't give savagagery) you will have to fill in exactly 3 ca/advantages in the 2 sec cap to keep the savagery at 6. And you can't not control not to use evade/snare. I am currently have both casting speed and recovery nearly capped, 35 reuse unbuffed, and RoA. Like I said it is hard to compare my performance but more often than not my BL miss the IV or V of feral rampage buff.

The feature that I am asking for support your approach as well. I just hope to be able to have a different casting order when casting primals.
I really feel like we're going around in circles here. I still have no idea what you're after, or how it would help anything. If you want, try giving me an actual example, using real BL abilities, just label them such as:
Kick (CA)
Punch (Advantage)
Slam (Primal)

(I realize a BL doesn't have kick/punch/slam, but I couldn't think of names off the top of my head).
Using an actual example may let me see what's the issue.
 

macker0407

Active Member
This is just a guess, but I think snnr wants the ability to have an extra conditional available that allows him to stick purely to savagery generating abilities so as to maximise the chances of maintaining 6 savagery during a primal dump. But in between primal dumps the bot will just use abilities as normal, including snare/evade.

Whether this will a) do anything appreciable DPS wise and b) is actually fully achievable using chains I have no idea. For a) though I suspect the answer is "no".
 

snnr

Member
Sure.

Let's divide BL's ca into different kinds:

a) primals
b) advantages
c) regular damaging CAs, e.g. quick swipe
4) non-CAs, e.g. vine net (snare)

Normally, my BL will cast b, c, d, in the order defined in CA tab ---- no problem at this point

Now, suppose I have already have 6 savagery and primals up, and forget about Freeze. My optimal casting sequence will be something like:

primal 1
2 second interval
primal 2
2 second interval
primal 3
2 second interval
primal 4
2 second interval
primal 5
2 second interval
primal 6

where in those 2 second intervals, the casting order defined in the CA tab should still be applied except (d), non-damaging CAs, which should not be cast. The reason for casting CAs during primal dump is to 1) maintain savagery and 2) gain addition damage thanks to feral rampage 3) maintain buffs. Note that primal 2-6 should not be regulated by the savagery 6 condition as the point for doing primal dump is for purely gaining the feral rampage buff. At this point, doing a chaintab makes perfect sense.

However, THE PROBLEM is that anything defined in the chaintab will not be cast when the chain is not active. Say, if I define the chaintab as follows:

primal 1
quick swipe [optional][ID]
feral rending [optional]
primal 2

The BL will no longer cast quick swipe and feral rending that are in the CA tab. My previous suggestion was to give a [NotHoldingForChainTab] tag to chaintab, so that the BL will cast stuff that are defined for chaintab. The CAs in the 2sec interval would be hardcoded. It could be more efficient if the CAs are priority based, which means, IMO, there should be a different priority-based casting order for primal dump.

In this thread, I was suggesting adding a [Dump Primal] tag. There should be a start condition that activate [Dump Primal], say, when primal 1 is cast; there should also be an end condition, say, cast of primal 6; and an expire condition, say expiration of feral rampage and savagery level below 3. Suppose I have following ca:

Hawk Eye [maintain]
Glacous Roar
feral rending
primal 1 [sav 6]
quick swipe
primal 2 [Dump Primal]
primal 3 [Dump Primal]
primal 4 [Dump Primal]
primal 5 [Dump Primal]
primal 6 [Dump Primal]
Rush
Vine Net
Evade

When I don't have enough savagery nor primal 1 up, I should cast things in this order (suppose everything is up)

Hawk Eye
Glacous Roar (if encounter) or feral rending (if not encounter)
quick swipe
Rush
Vine Net
Evade

but when I actually hit primal1, which activate the Dump Primal tag, the things to be cast is like this:

Hawk Eye (if expired), Glacous Roar (if encounter) or feral rending (if not encounter)
quick swipe (if up)
primal 2
Hawk Eye (if expired), Glacous Roar (if encounter) or feral rending (if not encounter)
quick swipe (if up)
primal 3
Hawk Eye (if expired), Glacous Roar (if encounter) or feral rending (if not encounter)
quick swipe (if up)
primal 4
Hawk Eye (if expired), Glacous Roar (if encounter) or feral rending (if not encounter)
quick swipe (if up)
primal 5
Hawk Eye (if expired), Glacous Roar (if encounter) or feral rending (if not encounter)
quick swipe (if up)
primal 6

It seems I miss obvious point because everyone rejects what I try to say. But I re-evaluated for many times and still can't figure out why this doesn't make sense to you guys.


I really feel like we're going around in circles here. I still have no idea what you're after, or how it would help anything. If you want, try giving me an actual example, using real BL abilities, just label them such as:
Kick (CA)
Punch (Advantage)
Slam (Primal)

(I realize a BL doesn't have kick/punch/slam, but I couldn't think of names off the top of my head).
Using an actual example may let me see what's the issue.
 

insanitywiz

Senior Member
I get it, however, however I really don't understand the reasoning. And from my understanding of the chaintabs, it IS possible to do already, with the exception of casting ability A if encounter or ability B if single target. Which I wouldn't do myself anyway (how many ecounters with 4 mobs do you fight? Not many, not when it counts, and unless there are at least 4 mobs you are losing DPS casting Glacial Roar over Feral Rending) Yes, the chaintab would hold it back from being cast in CA's if the chain is prepping.


Set up your chain thusly.

Hawk Eye [maintain]
Glacial Roar
feral rending
primal 1 [sav 6]
quick swipe
primal 2
Hawk Eye [maintain] [Optional]
Feral rending [Optional]
Quick swipe [Optional]
primal 3
Hawk Eye [maintain] [Optional]
Feral rending [Optional]
Quick swipe [Optional]
primal 4
Hawk Eye [maintain] [Optional]
Feral rending [Optional]
Quick swipe [Optional]
primal 5
Hawk Eye [maintain] [Optional]
Feral rending [Optional]
Quick swipe [Optional]
primal 6
Rush
Vine Net
Evade


I don't think you even need the Optional tag in there, as thats just for when it's deciding to fire the chain or not. If the ability is up durring a chain, it will fire it, if it's not, it will skip it.

Note, I do not think you will gain any DPS doing things this way.
 

Kannkor

Ogre
I get it, however, however I really don't understand the reasoning. And from my understanding of the chaintabs, it IS possible to do already, with the exception of casting ability A if encounter or ability B if single target. Which I wouldn't do myself anyway (how many ecounters with 4 mobs do you fight? Not many, not when it counts, and unless there are at least 4 mobs you are losing DPS casting Glacial Roar over Feral Rending) Yes, the chaintab would hold it back from being cast in CA's if the chain is prepping.


Set up your chain thusly.

Hawk Eye [maintain]
Glacial Roar
feral rending
primal 1 [sav 6]
quick swipe
primal 2
Hawk Eye [maintain] [Optional]
Feral rending [Optional]
Quick swipe [Optional]
primal 3
Hawk Eye [maintain] [Optional]
Feral rending [Optional]
Quick swipe [Optional]
primal 4
Hawk Eye [maintain] [Optional]
Feral rending [Optional]
Quick swipe [Optional]
primal 5
Hawk Eye [maintain] [Optional]
Feral rending [Optional]
Quick swipe [Optional]
primal 6
Rush
Vine Net
Evade


I don't think you even need the Optional tag in there, as thats just for when it's deciding to fire the chain or not. If the ability is up durring a chain, it will fire it, if it's not, it will skip it.

Note, I do not think you will gain any DPS doing things this way.
Can't really put advantages into a chain tab, because it'll hold them back from being cast (well maybe not with a 1s reuse or whatever).

I'll re-read what you wrote in the example above snnr, but I'm still not entirely sure what is wrong with the current method, the bot gains and uses savagery.

To over simplify, do you want it to hit 6 savagery, then just blow all your 6 primals, regardless of savagery?
 

battleaxe

Member
To over simplify, do you want it to hit 6 savagery, then just blow all your 6 primals, regardless of savagery?
I believe that's the goal, and still be hitting CA's in-between the primal CD to slow down savergy loss. This would be in order to take more avantage of the feral buff before it fades off to nothing.
 

snnr

Member
To some extent, yes.

Because some primals are modified by both savagery level and Feral Rampage, FR, level while some primals are only modified by FR level, you would want to maintain both FR and savagery levels. As we all know,FR buffs will start draining a certain mount of savagery, exponentially to the level of FR, every 2 seconds. But when FR III is stacked by FR IV, for example, the timer will reset, which is the reason we need to blow each of all 6 primals within a 2 sec window. That way you gain FR without wasting savagery.

If I recall correctly, you gain 23 sav from advantages and 18 sav from damaging CA. Each primal cost 50 sav while exotic primals cost 25. This means you can at least maintain savagery above 5 for all your six primals without any temp buff if you have sufficient casting speed and recovery. (But not 6 cuz 0.25 + 0.25 casting + recovery is the theoretically limit; you won't be able to cast 3 adv/ca plus primal within 2 sec, theoretically) thus, waiting for regain 6 sav == what noob bl do.


To over simplify, do you want it to hit 6 savagery, then just blow all your 6 primals, regardless of savagery?
 

snnr

Member
I get it, however, however I really don't understand the reasoning. And from my understanding of the chaintabs, it IS possible to do already, with the exception of casting ability A if encounter or ability B if single target. Which I wouldn't do myself anyway (how many ecounters with 4 mobs do you fight? Not many, not when it counts, and unless there are at least 4 mobs you are losing DPS casting Glacial Roar over Feral Rending) Yes, the chaintab would hold it back from being cast in CA's if the chain is prepping.


Set up your chain thusly.

Hawk Eye [maintain]
Glacial Roar
feral rending
primal 1 [sav 6]
quick swipe
primal 2
Hawk Eye [maintain] [Optional]
Feral rending [Optional]
Quick swipe [Optional]
primal 3
Hawk Eye [maintain] [Optional]
Feral rending [Optional]
Quick swipe [Optional]
primal 4
Hawk Eye [maintain] [Optional]
Feral rending [Optional]
Quick swipe [Optional]
primal 5
Hawk Eye [maintain] [Optional]
Feral rending [Optional]
Quick swipe [Optional]
primal 6
Rush
Vine Net
Evade


I don't think you even need the Optional tag in there, as thats just for when it's deciding to fire the chain or not. If the ability is up durring a chain, it will fire it, if it's not, it will skip it.

Note, I do not think you will gain any DPS doing things this way.
The optional tag is necessary. And you won't want to put Hawk Eye in the chaintab cuz it won't be cast in your ca tab anymore. :s
 

Kannkor

Ogre
To some extent, yes.

Because some primals are modified by both savagery level and Feral Rampage, FR, level while some primals are only modified by FR level, you would want to maintain both FR and savagery levels. As we all know,FR buffs will start draining a certain mount of savagery, exponentially to the level of FR, every 2 seconds. But when FR III is stacked by FR IV, for example, the timer will reset, which is the reason we need to blow each of all 6 primals within a 2 sec window. That way you gain FR without wasting savagery.

If I recall correctly, you gain 23 sav from advantages and 18 sav from damaging CA. Each primal cost 50 sav while exotic primals cost 25. This means you can at least maintain savagery above 5 for all your six primals without any temp buff if you have sufficient casting speed and recovery. (But not 6 cuz 0.25 + 0.25 casting + recovery is the theoretically limit; you won't be able to cast 3 adv/ca plus primal within 2 sec, theoretically) thus, waiting for regain 6 sav == what noob bl do.
Interesting...
I'm going to sleep on it and see what ideas come into mind for something of the sort. Not sure if the time invested will be worth it, so I make no promises.
 

Kannkor

Ogre
Optional tag is only required for STARTING a chain, not while a chain is casting, IIRC.
In the existing Chain tabs, the optional just means start the chain without this ability if it's not up. It WILL still hold back the ability from firing so it is available for the chain, if it is available.
 
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